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	<title>Comments for Gary Metcalf</title>
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	<link>http://garymetcalf.com/blog</link>
	<description>Systems and how the world works</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:05:46 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Searching for the essence of systems by David Ing</title>
		<link>http://garymetcalf.com/blog/index.php/archive/searching-for-the-essence-of-systems/comment-page-1#comment-13127</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://garymetcalf.com/blog/?p=66#comment-13127</guid>
		<description>@garysmetcalf The ties you describe by Whitehead between science and spirituality speak to the challenges with objective worldviews, leading to a perspective that reality is not independent of the observer.  

In reading &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.homme-moderne.org/societe/socio/bourdieu/mort/gua0128.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pierre Bourdieu&lt;/a&gt;, I was initially frustrated his resistance to create objective definitions for his concepts.  It took some time for me to became comfortable with the &lt;a href=&quot;http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/phenomenology/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;phenomenological perspective&lt;/a&gt; (through Heidegger&#039;s influence on Bourdieu).  I now think about context a lot more than I used to. 

The systems perspective would be to see interconnected in &lt;a href=&quot;http://quergeist.net/Problematique_Club-of-Rome.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;problematiques&lt;/a&gt; -- systems of problems&lt;/a&gt;, where science can&#039;t be untied from the minds of the theoreticians who have become notable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@garysmetcalf The ties you describe by Whitehead between science and spirituality speak to the challenges with objective worldviews, leading to a perspective that reality is not independent of the observer.  </p>
<p>In reading <a href="http://www.homme-moderne.org/societe/socio/bourdieu/mort/gua0128.html" rel="nofollow">Pierre Bourdieu</a>, I was initially frustrated his resistance to create objective definitions for his concepts.  It took some time for me to became comfortable with the <a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/phenomenology/" rel="nofollow">phenomenological perspective</a> (through Heidegger&#8217;s influence on Bourdieu).  I now think about context a lot more than I used to. </p>
<p>The systems perspective would be to see interconnected in <a href="http://quergeist.net/Problematique_Club-of-Rome.htm" rel="nofollow">problematiques</a> &#8212; systems of problems, where science can&#8217;t be untied from the minds of the theoreticians who have become notable.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Moving towards open source: From Windows XP to Linux (Ubuntu) by David Ing</title>
		<link>http://garymetcalf.com/blog/index.php/archive/moving-towards-open-source-from-windows-xp-to-linux-ubuntu/comment-page-1#comment-11532</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Sep 2010 01:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://garymetcalf.com/blog/?p=60#comment-11532</guid>
		<description>@garysmetcalf Your analogy of simpler cars that a teenager might maintain as a parallel to Linux is apt.  The expectation about mechanics are supposed to speak to men as opposed to women underscores how much &quot;under the hood&quot; we&#039;re supposed to get.  Today&#039;s automobiles have lots of computer software built in, so repairmen have to deal with the logical as well as the physical.  

You&#039;ve of an age where you must have experienced the DOS prompt, which is different from most computer users of today.  There&#039;s some interesting anchoring effects from prior knowledge.  I was involved in the days when &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=YXV8AAAACAAJ&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;tests between OS/2 Workplace Shell, Windows and Mac interfaces were compared&lt;/a&gt;.  People who had never used a computer before found the OS/2 Object-Oriented User Interface easiest.  However, if they had previous experience with Windows, they had the hardest time adapting to the &quot;intuitive&quot; logic.  

One of the fundamental differences between Linux and Windows is that Linux is architected as multi-user system, even though desktop systems are normally only a single user.  Windows comes from a single user heritage, that was expanded to multi-user.  This creates different frames in the way computers work.  

I recognize the idea of extending a screen to multiple monitors, which is reasonable.  Linux generally has the capability of simultaneously running multiple sessions on multiple desktops, so that you could be person 1 on screen 1 and person 2 on screen 2 at the same time.  It&#039;s possible to send things from one screen to another.  (It just occurred to me that we see actors on television in intelligence shows like &quot;24&quot; sending a report from one screen to another ... which means that they must be using Linux!)  

Finally, since Linux is free (as in gratis, as well as in liberty), will the computer user choose to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.canonical.com/consumer-services/support&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;pay for Ubuntu support services&lt;/a&gt; independently of the product?  This parallels back to the practice of a car owner going to an oil change garage, when he or she actually has the skills to change the oil from prior experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@garysmetcalf Your analogy of simpler cars that a teenager might maintain as a parallel to Linux is apt.  The expectation about mechanics are supposed to speak to men as opposed to women underscores how much &#8220;under the hood&#8221; we&#8217;re supposed to get.  Today&#8217;s automobiles have lots of computer software built in, so repairmen have to deal with the logical as well as the physical.  </p>
<p>You&#8217;ve of an age where you must have experienced the DOS prompt, which is different from most computer users of today.  There&#8217;s some interesting anchoring effects from prior knowledge.  I was involved in the days when <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=YXV8AAAACAAJ" rel="nofollow">tests between OS/2 Workplace Shell, Windows and Mac interfaces were compared</a>.  People who had never used a computer before found the OS/2 Object-Oriented User Interface easiest.  However, if they had previous experience with Windows, they had the hardest time adapting to the &#8220;intuitive&#8221; logic.  </p>
<p>One of the fundamental differences between Linux and Windows is that Linux is architected as multi-user system, even though desktop systems are normally only a single user.  Windows comes from a single user heritage, that was expanded to multi-user.  This creates different frames in the way computers work.  </p>
<p>I recognize the idea of extending a screen to multiple monitors, which is reasonable.  Linux generally has the capability of simultaneously running multiple sessions on multiple desktops, so that you could be person 1 on screen 1 and person 2 on screen 2 at the same time.  It&#8217;s possible to send things from one screen to another.  (It just occurred to me that we see actors on television in intelligence shows like &#8220;24&#8243; sending a report from one screen to another &#8230; which means that they must be using Linux!)  </p>
<p>Finally, since Linux is free (as in gratis, as well as in liberty), will the computer user choose to <a href="http://www.canonical.com/consumer-services/support" rel="nofollow">pay for Ubuntu support services</a> independently of the product?  This parallels back to the practice of a car owner going to an oil change garage, when he or she actually has the skills to change the oil from prior experience.</p>
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		<title>Comment on PNC Online Banking: A Service Nightmare by David Ing</title>
		<link>http://garymetcalf.com/blog/index.php/archive/pnc-online-banking-a-service-nightmare/comment-page-1#comment-11493</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://garymetcalf.com/blog/?p=48#comment-11493</guid>
		<description>@garysmetcalf You have my sympathies on dealing with American Banks.  Some years ago, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.canadianencyclopedia.ca/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&amp;Params=M1ARTM0012365&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Canadian banks proposed merging, and were turned down by the government&lt;/a&gt;.  In the time that has passed, the &quot;bigger is better&quot; argument isn&#039;t so defensible.  I noticed in this morning&#039;s news that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/troubled-anglo-irish-to-be-split/article1699770/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;in Ireland, the government is looking to split up banks&lt;/a&gt;.  From a systems perspective, this looks like movement towards Howard Odum&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=GXUD60vcICwC&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Prosperous Way Down&lt;/a&gt;, which is an alternative superior to Joe Tainter&#039;s &lt;a&gt;Collapse of Complex Societies&lt;/a&gt;.  Reorganizing a system of banks that has merged requires some humility, so perhaps the leaders who got us here aren&#039;t the most likely to bring the option forward sufficiently early to correct the problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@garysmetcalf You have my sympathies on dealing with American Banks.  Some years ago, the <a href="http://www.canadianencyclopedia.ca/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&amp;Params=M1ARTM0012365" rel="nofollow">Canadian banks proposed merging, and were turned down by the government</a>.  In the time that has passed, the &#8220;bigger is better&#8221; argument isn&#8217;t so defensible.  I noticed in this morning&#8217;s news that <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/troubled-anglo-irish-to-be-split/article1699770/" rel="nofollow">in Ireland, the government is looking to split up banks</a>.  From a systems perspective, this looks like movement towards Howard Odum&#8217;s <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=GXUD60vcICwC" rel="nofollow">Prosperous Way Down</a>, which is an alternative superior to Joe Tainter&#8217;s <a>Collapse of Complex Societies</a>.  Reorganizing a system of banks that has merged requires some humility, so perhaps the leaders who got us here aren&#8217;t the most likely to bring the option forward sufficiently early to correct the problems.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Service, security, location and identity by David Ing</title>
		<link>http://garymetcalf.com/blog/index.php/archive/service-security-location-and-identity/comment-page-1#comment-11491</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://garymetcalf.com/blog/?p=34#comment-11491</guid>
		<description>@garysmetcalf Even if a person does not want to be active on the open Internet (or Facebook), he or she may will still end up with a &lt;a href=&quot;http://coevolving.com/blogs/index.php/archive/the-why-and-how-of-establishing-your-web-persona/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;web persona&lt;/a&gt; due to the nature of search engines.  

Location-based services reflect the &lt;a href=&quot;http://coevolving.com/blogs/index.php/archive/converging-digital-and-physical-infrastructures-instrumented-interconnected-intelligent/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;instrumented&lt;/a&gt; aspect of converging digital and physical infrastructures.  People generally get the &quot;interconnected&quot; idea with open standards making data interchange on the Internet relatively easily.  The surprise seems to come from the &quot;intelligent&quot; third part, where machine processing has accelerated to near-real-time analysis.  

There are new personal skills to be developed in this instrumented, interconnected and intelligent world.  Deciding on the settings on Facebook is an early adaptation to potential risks that few had considered just a few years ago.  I&#039;m unclear whether teenagers are better or worse skilled than seniors in this new world.  Service providers may have to take risks on new technologies and practices where consumers&#039; experiences have not taken them before.  (You&#039;re old enough to remember the Internet described as interactive television ... which isn&#039;t exactly what we have today).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@garysmetcalf Even if a person does not want to be active on the open Internet (or Facebook), he or she may will still end up with a <a href="http://coevolving.com/blogs/index.php/archive/the-why-and-how-of-establishing-your-web-persona/" rel="nofollow">web persona</a> due to the nature of search engines.  </p>
<p>Location-based services reflect the <a href="http://coevolving.com/blogs/index.php/archive/converging-digital-and-physical-infrastructures-instrumented-interconnected-intelligent/" rel="nofollow">instrumented</a> aspect of converging digital and physical infrastructures.  People generally get the &#8220;interconnected&#8221; idea with open standards making data interchange on the Internet relatively easily.  The surprise seems to come from the &#8220;intelligent&#8221; third part, where machine processing has accelerated to near-real-time analysis.  </p>
<p>There are new personal skills to be developed in this instrumented, interconnected and intelligent world.  Deciding on the settings on Facebook is an early adaptation to potential risks that few had considered just a few years ago.  I&#8217;m unclear whether teenagers are better or worse skilled than seniors in this new world.  Service providers may have to take risks on new technologies and practices where consumers&#8217; experiences have not taken them before.  (You&#8217;re old enough to remember the Internet described as interactive television &#8230; which isn&#8217;t exactly what we have today).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Mental Models and Problems by David Ing</title>
		<link>http://garymetcalf.com/blog/index.php/archive/mental-models-and-problems/comment-page-1#comment-7712</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:00:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://garymetcalf.com/blog/index.php/archive/mental-models-and-problems/#comment-7712</guid>
		<description>The feeling that I get from the phrase &quot;mental models&quot; is that it feels too much like being inside of one&#039;s own head.

I see thinking as part of &quot;being-in-the-world&quot;, in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~hdreyfus/185_f07/html/Schedule.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Heidegger / Dreyfus&lt;/a&gt; sense.  We can shut ourselves up in our rooms, or we can get out into the world to see what is going on.

In the recent presidential elections, it&#039;s been interesting to see whether the candidates would stay &quot;on message&quot;, or respond to their first-hand observations about the concerns expressed by citizens.  It&#039;s a tricky balance, because it&#039;s a fine line between making a judgement based on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.randomhouse.com/features/wisdomofcrowds/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the wisdom of crowds&lt;/a&gt; and conclusions reached in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gladwell.com/blink/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;blink&lt;/a&gt; of an eye.

To me, &quot;being in the world&quot; means being social ... even if I&#039;m an introvert.  We should always look for ways, as Churchman described, to &lt;em&gt;sweep in&lt;/em&gt; new ideas ... although we naturally should continue to do so until we find that we&#039;re not learning anything new.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The feeling that I get from the phrase &#8220;mental models&#8221; is that it feels too much like being inside of one&#8217;s own head.</p>
<p>I see thinking as part of &#8220;being-in-the-world&#8221;, in the <a href="http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~hdreyfus/185_f07/html/Schedule.html" rel="nofollow">Heidegger / Dreyfus</a> sense.  We can shut ourselves up in our rooms, or we can get out into the world to see what is going on.</p>
<p>In the recent presidential elections, it&#8217;s been interesting to see whether the candidates would stay &#8220;on message&#8221;, or respond to their first-hand observations about the concerns expressed by citizens.  It&#8217;s a tricky balance, because it&#8217;s a fine line between making a judgement based on the <a href="http://www.randomhouse.com/features/wisdomofcrowds/" rel="nofollow">the wisdom of crowds</a> and conclusions reached in the <a href="http://www.gladwell.com/blink/" rel="nofollow">blink</a> of an eye.</p>
<p>To me, &#8220;being in the world&#8221; means being social &#8230; even if I&#8217;m an introvert.  We should always look for ways, as Churchman described, to <em>sweep in</em> new ideas &#8230; although we naturally should continue to do so until we find that we&#8217;re not learning anything new.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The reality of economic systems by David Ing</title>
		<link>http://garymetcalf.com/blog/index.php/archive/the-reality-of-economic-systems/comment-page-1#comment-7652</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://garymetcalf.com/blog/index.php/archive/the-reality-of-economic-systems/#comment-7652</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Wading into discussing economics systems certainly gets deep (and wide) pretty fast&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Since I am trained in economics up to the graduate level, I&#039;ll give two opinions.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(1) There&#039;s a lot of bad economics amongst economists.  The most simple-minded economists don&#039;t make a differentiation between money and utility.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Utility&lt;/a&gt; theory is at the foundation of microeconomics, and recognizes that (a) not everything can be monetized, and (b) preferences can be ordered (i.e. as &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility#Cardinal_and_ordinal_utility&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ordinal&lt;/a&gt; utility) but not necessarily added up (i.e. cardinal utility).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(2) There are too many economists who look at economics reductively, in the sense that they don&#039;t take interactions with other systems into account.  They should understand the influences of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_economy&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;political economy&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_sociology&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;economic sociology&lt;/a&gt;.  The latter is a much more recent field, where common practices of gift-giving and ritual are included.  (Those concepts give economists lots of issues).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That being said, I do like economics (when well done) as a way of understanding tradeoffs.  I believe that books like &lt;a href=&quot;http://freakonomicsbook.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Freakonomics&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt; help, where courageous economists can show up lesser thinkers.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;On speculation, you&#039;re describing the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_value&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;paradox of value&lt;/a&gt;, where &lt;em&gt;value in use&lt;/em&gt; (&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_value&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;use value&lt;/a&gt;) and &lt;em&gt;value in exchange&lt;/em&gt; (&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchange_value&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;exchange value&lt;/a&gt;) are out of sync with each other.  A pure &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market_economics&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;free market&lt;/a&gt; economist might argue that markets will return to equilibrium, but Keynes said &quot;In the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-run&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;long run&lt;/a&gt;, we are all dead&quot;.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I&#039;ve been influenced by the thinking of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_F._H._Allen&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Timothy F. H. Allen&lt;/a&gt;, who has said (something to the effect that) unlike economists, ecologists recognize that systems sometimes die.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wading into discussing economics systems certainly gets deep (and wide) pretty fast</p>
<p>Since I am trained in economics up to the graduate level, I&#8217;ll give two opinions.</p>
<p>(1) There&#8217;s a lot of bad economics amongst economists.  The most simple-minded economists don&#8217;t make a differentiation between money and utility.  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility" rel="nofollow">Utility</a> theory is at the foundation of microeconomics, and recognizes that (a) not everything can be monetized, and (b) preferences can be ordered (i.e. as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility#Cardinal_and_ordinal_utility" rel="nofollow">ordinal</a> utility) but not necessarily added up (i.e. cardinal utility).</p>
<p>(2) There are too many economists who look at economics reductively, in the sense that they don&#8217;t take interactions with other systems into account.  They should understand the influences of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_economy" rel="nofollow">political economy</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_sociology" rel="nofollow">economic sociology</a>.  The latter is a much more recent field, where common practices of gift-giving and ritual are included.  (Those concepts give economists lots of issues).</p>
<p>That being said, I do like economics (when well done) as a way of understanding tradeoffs.  I believe that books like <a href="http://freakonomicsbook.com/" rel="nofollow"><em>Freakonomics</em></a> help, where courageous economists can show up lesser thinkers.</p>
<p>On speculation, you&#8217;re describing the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_value" rel="nofollow">paradox of value</a>, where <em>value in use</em> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_value" rel="nofollow">use value</a>) and <em>value in exchange</em> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchange_value" rel="nofollow">exchange value</a>) are out of sync with each other.  A pure <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market_economics" rel="nofollow">free market</a> economist might argue that markets will return to equilibrium, but Keynes said &#8220;In the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-run" rel="nofollow">long run</a>, we are all dead&#8221;.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been influenced by the thinking of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_F._H._Allen" rel="nofollow">Timothy F. H. Allen</a>, who has said (something to the effect that) unlike economists, ecologists recognize that systems sometimes die.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Boundaries by David Ing</title>
		<link>http://garymetcalf.com/blog/index.php/archive/boundaries/comment-page-1#comment-7638</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 16:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://garymetcalf.com/blog/index.php/archive/boundaries/#comment-7638</guid>
		<description>In your descriptions related to boundary, it strikes me that you&#039;re coming from a phenomenological approach, i.e. there&#039;s a phenomenon in the world that a researcher wants to understand in greater depth.

This is a style or working from data to theory (i.e. making observations and then building theory based on that data).  It&#039;s in contrast to working from theory to data (i.e. developing hypotheses and either finding (or not finding) support for the theory.

Working from data to theory is inductive.  Working from theory to data is deductive.

It&#039;s important to remember that science can be both inductive and deductive.  The story about an apple falling onto Newton&#039;s head -- which led to a theory about gravity  -- is, in effect, inductive science.

In either case, defining a boundary for study is necessary.  It is important to remember that that boundary as part of the mental model that human beings have to create within our brains.  The world isn&#039;t naturally bounded in the same way that we need to draw distinctions in our own minds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In your descriptions related to boundary, it strikes me that you&#8217;re coming from a phenomenological approach, i.e. there&#8217;s a phenomenon in the world that a researcher wants to understand in greater depth.</p>
<p>This is a style or working from data to theory (i.e. making observations and then building theory based on that data).  It&#8217;s in contrast to working from theory to data (i.e. developing hypotheses and either finding (or not finding) support for the theory.</p>
<p>Working from data to theory is inductive.  Working from theory to data is deductive.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s important to remember that science can be both inductive and deductive.  The story about an apple falling onto Newton&#8217;s head &#8212; which led to a theory about gravity  &#8212; is, in effect, inductive science.</p>
<p>In either case, defining a boundary for study is necessary.  It is important to remember that that boundary as part of the mental model that human beings have to create within our brains.  The world isn&#8217;t naturally bounded in the same way that we need to draw distinctions in our own minds.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Systems and Research by David Ing</title>
		<link>http://garymetcalf.com/blog/index.php/archive/systems-and-research/comment-page-1#comment-7630</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://garymetcalf.com/blog/index.php/archive/systems-and-research/#comment-7630</guid>
		<description>I myself have grappled with the issue of understanding, teaching and writing about systems.  My solution has to been to avoid the use of the single word &quot;systems&quot;, and to combine the word with others to provide a context.

In business and organization studies, I like to make the contrast between systems models and systems metaphors.

Systems models, to me, are associated with systems science.  Following the ideals outlined by Greek philosophers, science is a pursuit of truth.  It requires phenomenon that are repeatable, observable, and measurable.  Models are associated with theories -- which are abstractions -- and can be replicated and/or reproduced at varying levels of rigour.

System metaphors, on the other hand, are much more how human beings understand the world.  Gareth Morgan&#039;s Images of Organization certainly follows this spirit.  Jay Ogilvy once cited that human beings speak in 5.2 metaphors per minute.  Scientific facts are hard to substantiate, and are generally too dry to consume.  Motivational speakers apply rhetoric as an art.

In management and organization, we need both systems science and systems metaphors.

Science isn&#039;t the best foundation when we don&#039;t have a complete history of observations, and a decision for action is required.  This is reflected in writings of Nassim Taleb (The Black Swan) and Jerome Ravetz (Postnormal Science).

System metaphors can lead us astray because a mental image may not be tangibly possible or practical.  Time travel makes great science fiction, but tends to ignore the second law of themodynamics (entropy).

Having both models and metaphors share a common foundation of systems enables a strong foundation of language on which we can have discussions.  From business consulting work that I had done in China, I discovered that management concepts based on systems basics (e.g. function, structure, process) were easily translatable and well-understood.

Perhaps the biggest challenge with systems is that they&#039;re so pervasive that it takes some effort to appreciate the patterns of the ordinary and the everyday.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I myself have grappled with the issue of understanding, teaching and writing about systems.  My solution has to been to avoid the use of the single word &#8220;systems&#8221;, and to combine the word with others to provide a context.</p>
<p>In business and organization studies, I like to make the contrast between systems models and systems metaphors.</p>
<p>Systems models, to me, are associated with systems science.  Following the ideals outlined by Greek philosophers, science is a pursuit of truth.  It requires phenomenon that are repeatable, observable, and measurable.  Models are associated with theories &#8212; which are abstractions &#8212; and can be replicated and/or reproduced at varying levels of rigour.</p>
<p>System metaphors, on the other hand, are much more how human beings understand the world.  Gareth Morgan&#8217;s Images of Organization certainly follows this spirit.  Jay Ogilvy once cited that human beings speak in 5.2 metaphors per minute.  Scientific facts are hard to substantiate, and are generally too dry to consume.  Motivational speakers apply rhetoric as an art.</p>
<p>In management and organization, we need both systems science and systems metaphors.</p>
<p>Science isn&#8217;t the best foundation when we don&#8217;t have a complete history of observations, and a decision for action is required.  This is reflected in writings of Nassim Taleb (The Black Swan) and Jerome Ravetz (Postnormal Science).</p>
<p>System metaphors can lead us astray because a mental image may not be tangibly possible or practical.  Time travel makes great science fiction, but tends to ignore the second law of themodynamics (entropy).</p>
<p>Having both models and metaphors share a common foundation of systems enables a strong foundation of language on which we can have discussions.  From business consulting work that I had done in China, I discovered that management concepts based on systems basics (e.g. function, structure, process) were easily translatable and well-understood.</p>
<p>Perhaps the biggest challenge with systems is that they&#8217;re so pervasive that it takes some effort to appreciate the patterns of the ordinary and the everyday.</p>
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